July 2019 - Tei-council - lists.tei-c.org

Condensing (or compressing) Refrigeration?
by Elisa Beshero-Bondar 03 Jul '19

03 Jul '19

Dear Councillors, My calendar tells me we have entered the Refrigeration period leading to the Freeze scheduled for 9 July next week. I have seen that Refrigeration is often, ironically, a moment of heated work as we try to resolve big issues and introduce something we care about for the next release. I am trying that now with the long overdue Measurement code (unitDecl, unitDef, etc), which really ought to be coming out. I see intense activity with uniHan right now and wonder if that too is targeted for this release? Here are some timing issues and updates. I have communicated with my original release tech partner, Vanessa, and we agreed that, given the lack of time she has had lately to work with us and concentrate on the TEI, that it is best she defer being a release tech until another time. As I see it, too, I expect this release to be challenging—I am expecting the unexpected—because of all the server issues recently and because the dev branch is still unstable with all the unwanted excitement over the simplePrint ODD. Vanessa asked me to convey her sincere apologies to Council for her absences and lack of time. I hope after the season of deep preoccupation and sadness that she will rejoin us with all the energy I know she has, but now is not the moment. I am thankful to Magdalena for volunteering to host me near Warsaw after the DH2019 conference next week, and she agreed that the two of us will be the release techs. As we look at prepping this next release, timing now really depends on both of us. I’m visiting her from 13-20 July—and I think Magdalena has her own travel plans starting (Saturday) 20 July. I think we’re safest if things go wrong to make sure we do the release in the middle of that week. But it sounds like we’re still heatedly coding toward this release, so I’d like to take stock of what we can complete just now—and reset the Refrigeration period, also perhaps scale back on some maybe too ambitious things we thought we could feasibly complete so we can properly refrigerate. Thoughts? What’s the state of the dev branch just now? Also, I will be flying to Utrecht to arrive for DH2019 on 6 July. Best, Elisa Sent from my iPhone

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shooting the messenger : make still broken
by Lou Burnard 03 Jul '19

03 Jul '19

Thinking about this debacle again, it seems to me that the approach taken in issue #370 (oh tei_simpleprint.odd has stopped working: so there must be something wrong with it) is really not defensible. 1. The unmodified tei_simplePrint odd is structured in exactly the same way as countless other ODDs, not excluding the TEI Guidelines. It has free floating globs of specification elements, which are invoked from a single schemaSpec by means of specGrpRefs. 2. The only thing which is slightly different about it is that some objects are declared more than once in multiple specGrps, with @mode=change. This is because the specGrps are organised thematically (for example one contains changes needed to introduce processing models, another contains changes needed to introduce schematron rules). This kind of logical organisation is perfectly reasonable as far as I am aware, indeed why else bother to have specGrps. 3. The only objection I can see to it is that an ODD processor has to decide how to combine two or more @mode=change specs. It's not just a matter of applying one set of changes: there may be a bunch of them. This is kind of the way unification grammars work in NLP: you build up the complete spec one bit at a time. Yes, occasionally you may find contradictions -- one spec adds an attribute x (say) which another one deletes, or gives a different datatype to. But this is not the only place where ODD processing is underspecified and rules of thumb are not hard to imagine (e.g. delete always wins; in the absence of delete, most recent modification always wins; etc.). 4. Moreover, and this is where I am really a bit annoyed, THIS USED TO WORK! So some infrastructural change has made it impossible to run the makefile and impossible to use the simpleprint odd as originally designed. And instead of trying to find what change has caused this, we are shooting the messenger. This my friends is called zealotry. In the immortal words of Michael SpMcQ in another recent context, "please don't".

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Re: [Tei-council] Roma and oxgarage in Newcastle
by James Cummings 03 Jul '19

03 Jul '19

Hi Peter, I did so by docker (don't you remember me badgering you with questions!). Will you be in Utrecht next week for DH? If so then maybe we can sit down and figure out what I did wrong. Many thanks, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University ________________________________ From: Peter Stadler <pstadler(a)mail.uni-paderborn.de> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 7:06:51 AM To: James Cummings Cc: tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org Subject: Re: [Tei-council] Roma and oxgarage in Newcastle Great news! Did you install from the Docker image or „by hand“? (because looking at your oxgarage I see that there are some failing AJAX requests to http://atnu-oxgarage.ncl.ac.uk/oxgarage/ege-webservice/Conversions/ and if it was the Docker image I’d like to fix it ;) Best Peter > Am 02.07.2019 um 21:37 schrieb James Cummings <James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk>: > > > Hi all, > > Just to mention that I installed (new) Roma and Oxgarage in Newcastle at: > > http://atnu-oxgarage.ncl.ac.uk/ > > And > > http://atnu-roma.ncl.ac.uk > > On a dev VM and not stable enough to bother mapping tei-c.org urls to but thought I'd mention it in case all the others go down for some reason. The git repo for Oxgarage stylesheets should be updating (git pull -q) every 30 minutes. > > Many thanks, > James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk > School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University > > _______________________________________________ > Tei-council mailing list > Tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org > http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council

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Roma and oxgarage in Newcastle
by James Cummings 03 Jul '19

03 Jul '19

Hi all, Just to mention that I installed (new) Roma and Oxgarage in Newcastle at: http://atnu-oxgarage.ncl.ac.uk/ And http://atnu-roma.ncl.ac.uk<http://atnu-roma.ncl.ac.uk/> On a dev VM and not stable enough to bother mapping tei-c.org urls to but thought I'd mention it in case all the others go down for some reason. The git repo for Oxgarage stylesheets should be updating (git pull -q) every 30 minutes. Many thanks, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University

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Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus
by James Cummings 02 Jul '19

02 Jul '19

It occurs to me that 2b could also say "choosing to more strongly exemplify nesting TEI or not" (i.e. we could choose to not do anything about it, allow nesting, continue to exemplify TEICorpus, or move to exemplifying nesting TEI more) So 2b is really two possibilities. Poorly phrased on my part. ;-) -James Many thanks, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk Senior Lecturer in Late-Medieval Literature and Digital Humanities School of English, Newcastle University ________________________________ From: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr> Sent: 01 July 2019 10:49 To: James Cummings Cc: Martina Scholger; TEI Council Subject: Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus Dear all, I am in phase with James’s note below. We could clarify rapidly while leaving options open. Laurent Le 1 juil. 2019 à 11:45, James Cummings <James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk<mailto:James.Cummings@newcastle.ac.uk>> a écrit : Hi Laurent, Martina, Council, etc. In terms of responding on TEI-L, this should be done promptly, I think immediately. Someone should take pains to point out again the two different and quite separate issues at hand: 1) For the standoff proposal, not wanting teiHeader in places other than it usually appears has created the suggestion of nesting TEI elements. This may or may not be a good solution for those wanting the standoff element or other people. 2) If, and only if, the council implemented the ability to nest TEI elements, this sort of makes TEICorpus redundant. In that case we are considering the possibilities of a) a long deprecation of TEICorpus, or b) choosing to more strongly exemplify nesting TEI or c) not deprecating in any way. Some may feel we should have both ways of doing things, some that we should de-exemplify TEICorpus, and some that should not deprecate or de-exemplify it at all. It is really issue 2 that we are asking the community about. Just my two pence, Many thanks, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk<mailto:James.Cummings@newcastle.ac.uk> Senior Lecturer in Late-Medieval Literature and Digital Humanities School of English, Newcastle University ________________________________ From: Tei-council <tei-council-bounces(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council-bounces@lists.tei-c.org>> on behalf of Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Sent: 01 July 2019 09:22 To: Martina Scholger Cc: TEI Council Subject: Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus Dear Martina, I need to set my planning for the week, but I could set up Monday afternoon as a possible slot. Best wishes, Laurent Le 1 juil. 2019 à 10:10, Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> a écrit : Dear Laurent, The Council will meet from September 14 to 16 (Sat-Mon). Would it be possible for you to join the Council meeting for a half day / a couple of hours to discuss standoff and other ling issues? Best, Martina Von: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Gesendet: Montag, 01. Juli 2019 07:39 An: Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> Cc: TEI Council <tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council@lists.tei-c.org>> Betreff: Re: feedback on teiCorpus Dear all, The main point I see is that by linking the two issues, we have been weak in argumentent for any of them. The causal chain from [teiHeader should not be in stadOff] to [teiCorpus] must be dropped is tiny, and we need to see whether we should not deal with things more independently from one another (in whatever order). I had started to elaborate the stdOff case in the scenario document but truly the recursive TEI discussion took us most of our discussion time. This is subtle and mail is not necessarily the best channel. Would Graz be a good place for making progress f2f? Best wishes, Laurent Le 30 juin 2019 à 23:31, Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> a écrit : Dear all, There have been several replies and questions sparked by our email about nesting TEI, deprecating teiCorpus, and standoff. One of the most prominent questions is that people want to know more about the standoff element. Is there a documentation that we can share with the list? Is this (https://github.com/sydb/stdfSpec/tree/linkDataBlock/Specification) in a state to be shared? The second major reaction was that several people ask for a reason why teiCorpus should be deprecated. How do we want to proceed with this? I believe that we should address this soon. Best, Martina Von: Tei-council <tei-council-bounces(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council-bounces@lists.tei-c.org>> Im Auftrag von Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 23:32 An: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Cc: TEI Council <tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council@lists.tei-c.org>> Betreff: Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus Dear all, thanks for your comments and suggestions. If there are no objections until tomorrow at noon, I’ll send it to the list. Best, Martina Von: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 20:54 An: Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> Cc: TEI Council <tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council@lists.tei-c.org>> Betreff: Re: feedback on teiCorpus Cool! I have edited the footnote and commented on the deprecation time. Best wishes and thanks for the lead on this, Laurent Le 24 juin 2019 à 19:04, Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> a écrit : Dear Laurent, dear Council, As discussed, we want to send an email to the TEI-L announcing the introduction of nesting TEI elements and asking for feedback on the proposal to deprecate <teiCorpus>. I made a first draft for this email here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jlk0FUHjUKlN-1-WAqhlhYReT2yq_eIbYP66osk…) and ask you to chime in. I suggest to send this on Wednesday. Best wishes, Martina Laurent Romary Inria, team ALMAnaCH laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr> Laurent Romary Inria, team ALMAnaCH laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr> Laurent Romary Inria, team ALMAnaCH laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>

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Re: [Tei-council] Condensing (or compressing) Refrigeration?
by James Cummings 02 Jul '19

02 Jul '19

Hi Elisa, It would not be the first time that the refrigeration process was condensed. I think the timetable always expresses our ideal intention. I'm of the opinion that getting the build back to building cleanly (and then things like measurement ticket) should be our priority over the precise dates we originally set out. Many thanks, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk School of English Literature, Language, and Linguistics, Newcastle University ________________________________ From: Tei-council <tei-council-bounces(a)lists.tei-c.org> on behalf of Elisa Beshero-Bondar <ebbondar(a)gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 2:42:52 PM To: tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org Subject: [Tei-council] Condensing (or compressing) Refrigeration? Dear Councillors, My calendar tells me we have entered the Refrigeration period leading to the Freeze scheduled for 9 July next week. I have seen that Refrigeration is often, ironically, a moment of heated work as we try to resolve big issues and introduce something we care about for the next release. I am trying that now with the long overdue Measurement code (unitDecl, unitDef, etc), which really ought to be coming out. I see intense activity with uniHan right now and wonder if that too is targeted for this release? Here are some timing issues and updates. I have communicated with my original release tech partner, Vanessa, and we agreed that, given the lack of time she has had lately to work with us and concentrate on the TEI, that it is best she defer being a release tech until another time. As I see it, too, I expect this release to be challenging—I am expecting the unexpected—because of all the server issues recently and because the dev branch is still unstable with all the unwanted excitement over the simplePrint ODD. Vanessa asked me to convey her sincere apologies to Council for her absences and lack of time. I hope after the season of deep preoccupation and sadness that she will rejoin us with all the energy I know she has, but now is not the moment. I am thankful to Magdalena for volunteering to host me near Warsaw after the DH2019 conference next week, and she agreed that the two of us will be the release techs. As we look at prepping this next release, timing now really depends on both of us. I’m visiting her from 13-20 July—and I think Magdalena has her own travel plans starting (Saturday) 20 July. I think we’re safest if things go wrong to make sure we do the release in the middle of that week. But it sounds like we’re still heatedly coding toward this release, so I’d like to take stock of what we can complete just now—and reset the Refrigeration period, also perhaps scale back on some maybe too ambitious things we thought we could feasibly complete so we can properly refrigerate. Thoughts? What’s the state of the dev branch just now? Also, I will be flying to Utrecht to arrive for DH2019 on 6 July. Best, Elisa Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Tei-council mailing list Tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council

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Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus
by James Cummings 01 Jul '19

01 Jul '19

Hi Laurent, Martina, Council, etc. In terms of responding on TEI-L, this should be done promptly, I think immediately. Someone should take pains to point out again the two different and quite separate issues at hand: 1) For the standoff proposal, not wanting teiHeader in places other than it usually appears has created the suggestion of nesting TEI elements. This may or may not be a good solution for those wanting the standoff element or other people. 2) If, and only if, the council implemented the ability to nest TEI elements, this sort of makes TEICorpus redundant. In that case we are considering the possibilities of a) a long deprecation of TEICorpus, or b) choosing to more strongly exemplify nesting TEI or c) not deprecating in any way. Some may feel we should have both ways of doing things, some that we should de-exemplify TEICorpus, and some that should not deprecate or de-exemplify it at all. It is really issue 2 that we are asking the community about. Just my two pence, Many thanks, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings(a)newcastle.ac.uk Senior Lecturer in Late-Medieval Literature and Digital Humanities School of English, Newcastle University ________________________________ From: Tei-council <tei-council-bounces(a)lists.tei-c.org> on behalf of Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr> Sent: 01 July 2019 09:22 To: Martina Scholger Cc: TEI Council Subject: Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus Dear Martina, I need to set my planning for the week, but I could set up Monday afternoon as a possible slot. Best wishes, Laurent Le 1 juil. 2019 à 10:10, Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> a écrit : Dear Laurent, The Council will meet from September 14 to 16 (Sat-Mon). Would it be possible for you to join the Council meeting for a half day / a couple of hours to discuss standoff and other ling issues? Best, Martina Von: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Gesendet: Montag, 01. Juli 2019 07:39 An: Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> Cc: TEI Council <tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council@lists.tei-c.org>> Betreff: Re: feedback on teiCorpus Dear all, The main point I see is that by linking the two issues, we have been weak in argumentent for any of them. The causal chain from [teiHeader should not be in stadOff] to [teiCorpus] must be dropped is tiny, and we need to see whether we should not deal with things more independently from one another (in whatever order). I had started to elaborate the stdOff case in the scenario document but truly the recursive TEI discussion took us most of our discussion time. This is subtle and mail is not necessarily the best channel. Would Graz be a good place for making progress f2f? Best wishes, Laurent Le 30 juin 2019 à 23:31, Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> a écrit : Dear all, There have been several replies and questions sparked by our email about nesting TEI, deprecating teiCorpus, and standoff. One of the most prominent questions is that people want to know more about the standoff element. Is there a documentation that we can share with the list? Is this (https://github.com/sydb/stdfSpec/tree/linkDataBlock/Specification) in a state to be shared? The second major reaction was that several people ask for a reason why teiCorpus should be deprecated. How do we want to proceed with this? I believe that we should address this soon. Best, Martina Von: Tei-council <tei-council-bounces(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council-bounces@lists.tei-c.org>> Im Auftrag von Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2019 23:32 An: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Cc: TEI Council <tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council@lists.tei-c.org>> Betreff: Re: [Tei-council] feedback on teiCorpus Dear all, thanks for your comments and suggestions. If there are no objections until tomorrow at noon, I’ll send it to the list. Best, Martina Von: Laurent Romary <laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 20:54 An: Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> Cc: TEI Council <tei-council(a)lists.tei-c.org<mailto:tei-council@lists.tei-c.org>> Betreff: Re: feedback on teiCorpus Cool! I have edited the footnote and commented on the deprecation time. Best wishes and thanks for the lead on this, Laurent Le 24 juin 2019 à 19:04, Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>) <martina.scholger(a)uni-graz.at<mailto:martina.scholger@uni-graz.at>> a écrit : Dear Laurent, dear Council, As discussed, we want to send an email to the TEI-L announcing the introduction of nesting TEI elements and asking for feedback on the proposal to deprecate <teiCorpus>. I made a first draft for this email here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jlk0FUHjUKlN-1-WAqhlhYReT2yq_eIbYP66osk…) and ask you to chime in. I suggest to send this on Wednesday. Best wishes, Martina Laurent Romary Inria, team ALMAnaCH laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr> Laurent Romary Inria, team ALMAnaCH laurent.romary(a)inria.fr<mailto:laurent.romary@inria.fr>

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feedback on teiCorpus
by Scholger, Martina (martina.scholger＠uni-graz.at) 01 Jul '19

01 Jul '19

Dear Laurent, dear Council, As discussed, we want to send an email to the TEI-L announcing the introduction of nesting TEI elements and asking for feedback on the proposal to deprecate <teiCorpus>. I made a first draft for this email here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jlk0FUHjUKlN-1-WAqhlhYReT2yq_eIbYP66osk…) and ask you to chime in. I suggest to send this on Wednesday. Best wishes, Martina

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