#705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc. - Tei-council - lists.tei-c.org

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#705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc.

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Raffaele Viglianti

27 Mar 2015 27 Mar '15

10:14 p.m.

Hi all, I've drafted a new section for chapter 6 Verse, to address bug #705 [1] The new section would come right after the section "Components of the Verse Line" [2] Here is the draft: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043#file-vesa Please let me know if you have any comments. If we're happy with it, I'd like to commit it before the freeze on Monday. Thanks! Raff [1] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/705/ [2] http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/VE.html#VESE

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Paul Schaffner

27 Mar 27 Mar

11:05 p.m.

New subject: [tei-council] #705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc.

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015, at 17:14, Raffaele Viglianti wrote:

Hi all,

I've drafted a new section for chapter 6 Verse, to address bug #705 [1]

The new section would come right after the section "Components of the Verse Line" [2]

Here is the draft: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043#file-vesa

Please let me know if you have any comments. If we're happy with it, I'd like to commit it before the freeze on Monday.

Hi Raff, As regards the language, I would say (1) since 'verse / verses' (as a count noun "a verse," "two verses") is ambiguous in English -- it can mean either a LINE of verse or a STANZA of verse --, I would be inclined to replace "two verses" "multiple verses" etc. with either "two lines of verse" or "two metrical lines". This avoids interference from the possible sense "two stanzas" etc. (2) It's 'stand-off' not 'stand-of'. As regards the general problem, I am a little dubious about the solutions, not because they are not valid solutions, but because in many cases (virtually all the ones that I meet) I would normally reach first for simpler alternatives, as perhaps would anyone using a tei-simple-like tag set. E.g. given this: <LG> <L>'Tis fit we think, by Force, he won the Field,</L> <L>Yet she submitted to that Force to yield.</L> <L>How often after, when he left her Bed,</L> <L>Call'd out betimes where Fame and Danger led.</L> <L>How often smiling was he heard to say,</L> <L>" And will you tempt your Ravisher to stay?</L> <L>" Can He deserve soft Looks, or winning Charms,</L> <L>" Who by rude Force at first possess'd your Arms?</L> </LG> We would be inclined (1) to leave it as it is and let the literal "-marks suffice to mark the the last three lines; or (2) replace <lg> with <div>, thus: <div type="stanza"> <L>'Tis fit we think, by Force, he won the Field,</L> <L>Yet she submitted to that Force to yield.</L> <L>How often after, when he left her Bed,</L> <L>Call'd out betimes where Fame and Danger led.</L> <L>How often smiling was he heard to say,</L> <Q rend="quoted"> <L>And will you tempt your Ravisher to stay?</L> <L>Can He deserve soft Looks, or winning Charms,</L> <L>Who by rude Force at first possess'd your Arms?</L> </Q> </div> since div allows q as contents but lg does not; or (3) use a nested <lg>, thus <lg> <L>'Tis fit we think, by Force, he won the Field,</L> <L>Yet she submitted to that Force to yield.</L> <L>How often after, when he left her Bed,</L> <L>Call'd out betimes where Fame and Danger led.</L> <L>How often smiling was he heard to say,</L> <lg rend="quoted"> <L>And will you tempt your Ravisher to stay?</L> <L>Can He deserve soft Looks, or winning Charms,</L> <L>Who by rude Force at first possess'd your Arms?</L> </lg> </lg> thereby straining a little the definition of lg as a 'formal unit' or (4) break up the <lg> <lg part="i"> <L>'Tis fit we think, by Force, he won the Field,</L> <L>Yet she submitted to that Force to yield.</L> <L>How often after, when he left her Bed,</L> <L>Call'd out betimes where Fame and Danger led.</L> <L>How often smiling was he heard to say,</L> </lg> <q> <lg part="f"> <L>And will you tempt your Ravisher to stay?</L> <L>Can He deserve soft Looks, or winning Charms,</L> <L>Who by rude Force at first possess'd your Arms?</L> </lg> </q> pfs -- Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service PFSchaffner@umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/

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Martin Holmes

28 Mar 28 Mar

2:54 a.m.

New subject: [tei-council] #705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc.

Hi Raff, Looks great. Just a couple of suggestions: "It is possible that certain textual structures may span multiple lines of verse, either by incorporating multiple verses, or by crossing the hierarchy of verse lines." Would "by incorporating multiple stanzas" be better? Or did you mean "lines"? "For these cases, it is recommended to fragment and reconstruct the elements representing the textual structures." This might be a personal thing, but I don't like "it is recommended to" + verb; it doesn't sound quite correct to me. Elsewhere in the Guidelines we use the formulation "it is recommended practice to...". "The following example from Margaret Cavendish's <title>Nature's Pictures</title> shows speech encoded across two verses..." Actually I think it shows speech encoded across two lines, doesn't it? "Alternatively, the elements may be reconstructed with stand-of markup via the element <gi>join</gi>" I think I'd prefer "using" instead of "via". Cheers, Martin On 15-03-27 02:14 PM, Raffaele Viglianti wrote:

Hi all,

I've drafted a new section for chapter 6 Verse, to address bug #705 [1]

The new section would come right after the section "Components of the Verse Line" [2]

Here is the draft: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043#file-vesa

Please let me know if you have any comments. If we're happy with it, I'd like to commit it before the freeze on Monday.

Thanks! Raff

[1] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/705/ [2] http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/VE.html#VESE

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Raffaele Viglianti

3:08 p.m.

New subject: [tei-council] #705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc.

Thanks both, I made a few changes following your suggestions and updates the gist: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043 Paul, the encoding solutions that you suggested wouldn't work for speech crossing line hierarchy: <lg> <l>For, when our souls have learned the heat to bear,</l> <l>The cloud will vanish, we shall hear His voice,</l> <l>Saying, <said xml:id="s1" next="#s2">Come out from the grove, my love and care,</said></l> <l><said xml:id="s2" prev="#s1">And round my golden tent like lambs rejoice.</said></l> </lg> Also using <div> instead of <lg> to access a certain element seems like tag abuse to me. I think Chapter 20 offers clear solutions to deal with cases such as this one and the new proposed section simply applies them, as well as pointing the reader to the relevant chapter. Raff On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Martin Holmes wrote:

Hi Raff,

Looks great. Just a couple of suggestions:

"It is possible that certain textual structures may span multiple lines of verse, either by incorporating multiple verses, or by crossing the hierarchy of verse lines."

Would "by incorporating multiple stanzas" be better? Or did you mean "lines"?

"For these cases, it is recommended to fragment and reconstruct the elements representing the textual structures."

This might be a personal thing, but I don't like "it is recommended to" + verb; it doesn't sound quite correct to me. Elsewhere in the Guidelines we use the formulation "it is recommended practice to...".

"The following example from Margaret Cavendish's <title>Nature's Pictures</title> shows speech encoded across two verses..."

Actually I think it shows speech encoded across two lines, doesn't it?

"Alternatively, the elements may be reconstructed with stand-of markup via the element <gi>join</gi>"

I think I'd prefer "using" instead of "via".

Cheers, Martin

On 15-03-27 02:14 PM, Raffaele Viglianti wrote:

...
Hi all,

I've drafted a new section for chapter 6 Verse, to address bug #705 [1]

The new section would come right after the section "Components of the Verse Line" [2]

Here is the draft: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043#file-vesa

Please let me know if you have any comments. If we're happy with it, I'd like to commit it before the freeze on Monday.

Thanks! Raff

[1] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/705/ [2] http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/VE.html#VESE

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Martin Holmes

10:31 p.m.

New subject: [tei-council] #705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc.

Hi Raff, One more minor thing: " A more general discussion of these and other strategies to deal with fragmentation and reconstruction are discussed in section <ptr target="#NHVE"/>. " "are" should be "is", because the subject is "a more general discussion". Sorry I didn't notice that last time. Cheers, Martin On 15-03-28 07:08 AM, Raffaele Viglianti wrote:

Thanks both,

I made a few changes following your suggestions and updates the gist: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043

Paul, the encoding solutions that you suggested wouldn't work for speech crossing line hierarchy:

<lg> <l>For, when our souls have learned the heat to bear,</l> <l>The cloud will vanish, we shall hear His voice,</l> <l>Saying, <said xml:id="s1" next="#s2">Come out from the grove, my love and care,</said></l> <l><said xml:id="s2" prev="#s1">And round my golden tent like lambs rejoice.</said></l> </lg>

Also using <div> instead of <lg> to access a certain element seems like tag abuse to me.

I think Chapter 20 offers clear solutions to deal with cases such as this one and the new proposed section simply applies them, as well as pointing the reader to the relevant chapter.

Raff

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Martin Holmes wrote:

...
Hi Raff,

Looks great. Just a couple of suggestions:

"It is possible that certain textual structures may span multiple lines of verse, either by incorporating multiple verses, or by crossing the hierarchy of verse lines."

Would "by incorporating multiple stanzas" be better? Or did you mean "lines"?

"For these cases, it is recommended to fragment and reconstruct the elements representing the textual structures."

This might be a personal thing, but I don't like "it is recommended to" + verb; it doesn't sound quite correct to me. Elsewhere in the Guidelines we use the formulation "it is recommended practice to...".

"The following example from Margaret Cavendish's <title>Nature's Pictures</title> shows speech encoded across two verses..."

Actually I think it shows speech encoded across two lines, doesn't it?

"Alternatively, the elements may be reconstructed with stand-of markup via the element <gi>join</gi>"

I think I'd prefer "using" instead of "via".

Cheers, Martin

On 15-03-27 02:14 PM, Raffaele Viglianti wrote:

...
Hi all,

I've drafted a new section for chapter 6 Verse, to address bug #705 [1]

The new section would come right after the section "Components of the Verse Line" [2]

Here is the draft: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043#file-vesa

Please let me know if you have any comments. If we're happy with it, I'd like to commit it before the freeze on Monday.

Thanks! Raff

[1] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/705/ [2] http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/VE.html#VESE

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Hugh Cayless

29 Mar 29 Mar

12:21 a.m.

New subject: [tei-council] #705 <lg> cannot contain <q>, <seg>, etc.

Maybe

"A more general discussion of these and other strategies to deal with fragmentation and reconstruction appears in section <ptr target="#NHVE"/>. "

Sent from my phone.

On Mar 28, 2015, at 17:31, Martin Holmes wrote:

Hi Raff,

One more minor thing:

" A more general discussion of these and other strategies to deal with fragmentation and reconstruction are discussed in section <ptr target="#NHVE"/>. "

"are" should be "is", because the subject is "a more general discussion".

Sorry I didn't notice that last time.

Cheers, Martin

...
On 15-03-28 07:08 AM, Raffaele Viglianti wrote: Thanks both,

I made a few changes following your suggestions and updates the gist: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043

Paul, the encoding solutions that you suggested wouldn't work for speech crossing line hierarchy:

<lg> <l>For, when our souls have learned the heat to bear,</l> <l>The cloud will vanish, we shall hear His voice,</l> <l>Saying, <said xml:id="s1" next="#s2">Come out from the grove, my love and care,</said></l> <l><said xml:id="s2" prev="#s1">And round my golden tent like lambs rejoice.</said></l> </lg>

Also using <div> instead of <lg> to access a certain element seems like tag abuse to me.

I think Chapter 20 offers clear solutions to deal with cases such as this one and the new proposed section simply applies them, as well as pointing the reader to the relevant chapter.

Raff

...
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Martin Holmes wrote:

Hi Raff,

Looks great. Just a couple of suggestions:

"It is possible that certain textual structures may span multiple lines of verse, either by incorporating multiple verses, or by crossing the hierarchy of verse lines."

Would "by incorporating multiple stanzas" be better? Or did you mean "lines"?

"For these cases, it is recommended to fragment and reconstruct the elements representing the textual structures."

This might be a personal thing, but I don't like "it is recommended to" + verb; it doesn't sound quite correct to me. Elsewhere in the Guidelines we use the formulation "it is recommended practice to...".

"The following example from Margaret Cavendish's <title>Nature's Pictures</title> shows speech encoded across two verses..."

Actually I think it shows speech encoded across two lines, doesn't it?

"Alternatively, the elements may be reconstructed with stand-of markup via the element <gi>join</gi>"

I think I'd prefer "using" instead of "via".

Cheers, Martin

...
On 15-03-27 02:14 PM, Raffaele Viglianti wrote:

Hi all,

I've drafted a new section for chapter 6 Verse, to address bug #705 [1]

The new section would come right after the section "Components of the Verse Line" [2]

Here is the draft: https://gist.github.com/raffazizzi/c70e1565bc4b83d4a043#file-vesa

Please let me know if you have any comments. If we're happy with it, I'd like to commit it before the freeze on Monday.

Thanks! Raff

[1] https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/705/ [2] http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/VE.html#VESE

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Hugh Cayless
Martin Holmes
Paul Schaffner
Raffaele Viglianti