Hi, @TEI Print: I agree with Elli that "TEI Print" may be confusing and lets one think of print output (maybe I have the connotation because there is a joint project from German universities called "XML print"). I think it is somehow misleading. If we go for "print", I would prefer an additional term like "earlyPrint", as Lou suggested, or something else. @TEI Simple: I like James' idea of building other schemas on the basis of TEI Simple (or whatever it is called in the end) in the future. I would have no problem with keeping it as TEI Simple. While it contains a couple of complexities (the header, as discussed earlier this week), it is a reduced and well documented set and I'm not sure how an even more simplified version would look like... @TEI Bookish That sounds not too bad, actually. And I like Raff's explanation. Martina -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: tei-council-bounces@lists.tei-c.org [mailto:tei-council-bounces@lists.tei-c.org] Im Auftrag von Raffaele Viglianti Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Oktober 2016 19:31 An: James Cummings; tei-council@lists.tei-c.org Betreff: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? I think Lou was semiserious when he offered TEIBookish, but I kind of like it. It indicates that it's mainly for books, but can deal with other stuff, including the other publication types that Martin brought up (broadsides, pamphlets...) I have no big issue with TEI Print. On the other hand TEI Simple may be misleading when a newbie uses it thinking it would be simple, but instead it turns out it's not that simple and is only good to encode printed material by (mostly) dead with men. Raff On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:20 PM, James Cummings wrote:

TEI PBWWM. (Printed books by white western men. ;-) ) (And yes, I know the objections to that, but exceptions aside it still does capture the limitations of scope for the TE Simple project.)

Ok, I still like TEI Simple. I think people could then build on this to do say critical editions with TEI Simple Editions, manuscript descriptions with TEI Simple msDesc, and corpora with TEI Simple Corpora, etc. etc. i.e. I view it as a starting point which some people will just use but from which we can make the more specific customisations targeting specific communities.

If you decide it is just about print or books then TEI Books and TEI Print aren't *bad*. Just don't float my boat as much.

-James

On 20/10/16 18:13, Lou Burnard wrote:

...

I'd really like us to come to a conclusion on what the-schema-formerly-known-as-simple should be called, this week if possible.

So far I've noticed some mild approval (and one objection) to renaming it as TEI Print. There's also been some mild approval for the notion that its current name is not good. But no other alternative seems to command support.

My experience has always been that deciding on a name for anything can take weeks and weeks and never reach any satisfactory conclusion because it's always possible to say "nah I dont like it". So can we have a sharp deadline for this discussion? I suggest Monday 24th, midnight CET.

And a rule that says "if you don't like [name] you have to propose a better one" might help too.

-- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

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You keep saying it isn't simple/easy. But really from an end-user's point of view it is....isn't it? There are a lot less elements to worry about, mostly there is one way of doing things, and Lou has improved the documentation, so it is the TEI but a fairly simple version of the TEI. Users aren't really going to be doing much more than encoding with it and sticking it into some pre-defined system for output. And sure, I agree with you wholeheartedly about recommendations of customisations, and when they have no one to ask then yes, they might take the one they think is easiest. (That is tei_all in my experience of users...) But I think all the other names have the same problems where they imply similar things even if for a particular subcommunity. I'm not sure that them choosing simple (and finding it doesn't do everything they way) is actually a bad thing. It was what MartinM wanted with his TEI Nudge... an easy route into the TEI which did a lot of the things you wanted, but if you wanted to do something more complex then you needed to find out how to add in more things, etc. Part of the point was also to have it tied to high-quality outputs for book-like objects. And that (and the documentation) is where I think we need to improve. The eXist-db TEI Publisher is a good thing, but only one possible output. I'm much less worried about the name than you though. -James On 21/10/16 15:43, Hugh Cayless wrote:

"Simple" is bad as a name on many levels:

1. It's not simple. 2. It doesn't describe what the customization is for. 3. People tend to conflate "simple" with "easy" and will naturally tend towards choosing the easy. We shouldn't be pushing people in a particular direction without knowing what they're trying to do.* 4. It opens us up to snarky jokes. They pretty much write themselves.

I'm much less worried about TEI Print, which might confuse people for 30 seconds, but they can read and see it's for printed materials, and not make any bad decisions.

Other variants are fine too: TEI Printed, TEI Bookish, TEI Old Print, whatever. Let's just please not do Simple.

* I think of recommending a customization as being a bit like what happens when you ask a Reference Librarian to recommend a book on X. They will respond by asking you "What do you want it for?"

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Scholger, Martina ( martina.scholger@uni-graz.at) wrote:

...

Hi,

@TEI Print: I agree with Elli that "TEI Print" may be confusing and lets one think of print output (maybe I have the connotation because there is a joint project from German universities called "XML print"). I think it is somehow misleading. If we go for "print", I would prefer an additional term like "earlyPrint", as Lou suggested, or something else.

@TEI Simple: I like James' idea of building other schemas on the basis of TEI Simple (or whatever it is called in the end) in the future. I would have no problem with keeping it as TEI Simple. While it contains a couple of complexities (the header, as discussed earlier this week), it is a reduced and well documented set and I'm not sure how an even more simplified version would look like...

@TEI Bookish That sounds not too bad, actually. And I like Raff's explanation.

Martina

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: tei-council-bounces@lists.tei-c.org [mailto:tei-council-bounces@ lists.tei-c.org] Im Auftrag von Raffaele Viglianti Gesendet: Donnerstag, 20. Oktober 2016 19:31 An: James Cummings; tei-council@lists.tei-c.org Betreff: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name?

I think Lou was semiserious when he offered TEIBookish, but I kind of like it. It indicates that it's mainly for books, but can deal with other stuff, including the other publication types that Martin brought up (broadsides, pamphlets...)

I have no big issue with TEI Print. On the other hand TEI Simple may be misleading when a newbie uses it thinking it would be simple, but instead it turns out it's not that simple and is only good to encode printed material by (mostly) dead with men.

Raff

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 1:20 PM, James Cummings < James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

...

TEI PBWWM. (Printed books by white western men. ;-) ) (And yes, I know the objections to that, but exceptions aside it still does capture the limitations of scope for the TE Simple project.)

Ok, I still like TEI Simple. I think people could then build on this to do say critical editions with TEI Simple Editions, manuscript descriptions with TEI Simple msDesc, and corpora with TEI Simple Corpora, etc. etc. i.e. I view it as a starting point which some people will just use but from which we can make the more specific customisations targeting specific communities.

If you decide it is just about print or books then TEI Books and TEI Print aren't *bad*. Just don't float my boat as much.

-James

On 20/10/16 18:13, Lou Burnard wrote:

...

I'd really like us to come to a conclusion on what the-schema-formerly-known-as-simple should be called, this week if possible.

So far I've noticed some mild approval (and one objection) to renaming it as TEI Print. There's also been some mild approval for the notion that its current name is not good. But no other alternative seems to command support. My experience has always been that deciding on a name for anything can take weeks and weeks and never reach any satisfactory conclusion because it's always possible to say "nah I dont like it". So can we have a sharp deadline for this discussion? I suggest Monday 24th, midnight CET. And a rule that says "if you don't like [name] you have to propose a better one" might help too.

-- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

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-- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

On 21/10/16 17:31, Kevin Hawkins wrote:

If you'll allow your webmaster to interject, let me say that I support "TEI Bookish". Lite and Tite, and Simple are all easily confused because of phonic and semantic similarity, which means no one can keep them straight. On the other hand, "bookish" sticks in your head. --Kevin

That to me seems like an argument against it.... ;-) I'm usually prone to the Silly but the 'ish' just seems like we're not taking it seriously at all to me. but I should stop whinging and let others have their say so I'll shut up for awhile. ;-) -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford

I like the idea of a customization being for something. I understand (and don't want to kick off the discussion about who uses TEI and who should use it) that SIMPLE is trying to solve a problem. What I object to is the assumption that the text encoding on-ramp should be with western printed books. I don't begrudge that community their customization and documentation - as I commend other widely adopted disciplinary efforts. I just don't think this is one size fits all and it has a rather paternalistic feel to it when it moves into that territory (don't shoot me). That said, this is a very useful piece of work, my point of view is skewed by the kinds of encoding I encounter more regularly than the printed book, and the name will be adopted and used quickly whatever it is. For me, the biggest objective comment on SIMPLE is that it will be confused with Lite, Tite etc. so Print may be the best alternative as per Hugh. Bookish is good, but a little too culturally specific. I don't have any further suggestions. Neat is also inoffensive, if not descriptive. --elli [Elli Mylonas Senior Digital Humanities Librarian and Center for Digital Scholarship University Library Brown University library.brown.edu/cds] On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Magdalena Turska wrote:

All that discussion of names makes me think we should choose something fairly meaningless but somehow appealing[1]. So, a brand name, if you want: easy to remember and with pleasant connotations, not necessarily descriptive or accurate.

Simple actually is such a name. But if not that, how about TEI Lean or TEI Neat (already proposed but went without comments). Perhaps other ideas in that vein?

I like the sound of Bookish as working title but support James' reserve it's not serious enough, even for me.

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get this discussion leading somewhere...

Magdalena

[1] one of the aims of having that customization being selling (or actually giving for free) the idea to innocent librarians and students who couple months down the road realize they've gotten themselves into an expensive habit, right? ;-)

On 21 October 2016 at 17:34, James Cummings wrote:

...

On 21/10/16 17:31, Kevin Hawkins wrote:

...

If you'll allow your webmaster to interject, let me say that I support "TEI Bookish". Lite and Tite, and Simple are all easily confused because of phonic and semantic similarity, which means no one can keep them straight. On the other hand, "bookish" sticks in your head. --Kevin

That to me seems like an argument against it.... ;-)

I'm usually prone to the Silly but the 'ish' just seems like we're not taking it seriously at all to me.

but I should stop whinging and let others have their say so I'll shut up for awhile. ;-)

-James

-- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford -- tei-council mailing list tei-council@lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council

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On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get this discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever. Here's what I suggest. 1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote the Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple". 2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter. 3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT! I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

The purpose of my first rule is to ensure a high turnout. At least from people who want a change. Sent from my Honor Mobile -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC: Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo. On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

...

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get this discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote the Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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Why not escalate this a bit and ask for naming proposals on tei-l. Might make the process slightly longer but no better way to engage the silent lurkers ;-) On 21 Oct 2016 18:31, "Hugh Cayless" wrote:

I doubt turnout will be a problem :-). We have input already from a majority of Council on this thread. Those of us who don't care can express that opinion by not voting. We also won't be misled into counting people who might just not be checking their email this week.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:22 PM, Lou Burnard

...

wrote:

...

The purpose of my first rule is to ensure a high turnout. At least from people who want a change.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk

...

wrote:

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

...

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get

...

...

discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote

this the

...

Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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Yeah, the other problem with taking this to the list is, we have to explain everything we’ve been discussing and discussing at length here…I think we can sort this out; there are enough of us. Elisa -- Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division 150 Finoli Drive Greensburg, PA 15601 USA E-mail: ebb8@pitt.edu mailto:ebb8@pitt.edu Development site: http://newtfire.org http://newtfire.org/

On Oct 21, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:

Do you want this baby in the next release? In your lifetime? Words fail me.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Magdalena Turska To: tei-council@lists.tei-c.org CC:

Why not escalate this a bit and ask for naming proposals on tei-l. Might make the process slightly longer but no better way to engage the silent lurkers ;-) On 21 Oct 2016 18:31, "Hugh Cayless" wrote:

...

I doubt turnout will be a problem :-). We have input already from a majority of Council on this thread. Those of us who don't care can express that opinion by not voting. We also won't be misled into counting people who might just not be checking their email this week.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:22 PM, Lou Burnard

...

wrote:

...

The purpose of my first rule is to ensure a high turnout. At least from people who want a change.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk

...

wrote:

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

...

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get

...

...

discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote

this the

...

Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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No, I suppose we don't at that. I was miscounting. But I still doubt the people who haven't commented have avoided doing so because they're in favor of the name :-). On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:

Do we? I have seen opinions from you elli James raff Martina which isn't much of a majority...

(If my sensible rule had been in place for the eu referendum we wouldn't be in this mess btw)

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

I doubt turnout will be a problem :-). We have input already from a majority of Council on this thread. Those of us who don't care can express that opinion by not voting. We also won't be misled into counting people who might just not be checking their email this week.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:22 PM, Lou Burnard

...

wrote:

...

The purpose of my first rule is to ensure a high turnout. At least from people who want a change.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk

...

wrote:

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

...

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get

...

...

discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote

this the

...

Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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ehhh…silly autocorrect: I was trying to say that “Simple is too semantically like unto Lite and Tite.” By which I mean, I agree with Kevin on that note, and I’d really like to see "TEI Bookish” come alive. We could even come up with a cute icon for it, a bespectacled gent with his nose in a book. That way we don’t have to say it’s for Western Printed Books by Dead White Men, but we convey it with an adorable image. TEI Bookish, please. Elisa -- Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division 150 Finoli Drive Greensburg, PA 15601 USA E-mail: ebb8@pitt.edu mailto:ebb8@pitt.edu Development site: http://newtfire.org http://newtfire.org/

On Oct 21, 2016, at 3:25 PM, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:

I’ve refrained only because I’ve been in class all day, but also because I’m puzzling and puzzling about the names and whether to propose anything new.

I like Kevin Hawkin’s point that “Simple” is too semantically like until Lite, and Tite. And I’m sorry, but neither “Lite” nor “Tite” seem like serious monakers to me!

I think TEI Bookish is actually *more serious* than these others, and more telling, and since many who code in TEI get started or spend lots of time with Western printed materials, most especially including our ECCO TCP group, “Bookish” conveys and carries that context quite well. It’s not universalizing, but quite broad, and also memorable. Selecting that name somehow has the air of choosing rightly and conveying a clear message.

Elisa -- Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division 150 Finoli Drive Greensburg, PA 15601 USA E-mail: ebb8@pitt.edu mailto:ebb8@pitt.edu Development site: http://newtfire.org http://newtfire.org/

...

On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:22 PM, Hugh Cayless mailto:philomousos@gmail.com> wrote:

No, I suppose we don't at that. I was miscounting. But I still doubt the people who haven't commented have avoided doing so because they're in favor of the name :-).

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Lou Burnard mailto:lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

...

Do we? I have seen opinions from you elli James raff Martina which isn't much of a majority...

(If my sensible rule had been in place for the eu referendum we wouldn't be in this mess btw)

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

I doubt turnout will be a problem :-). We have input already from a majority of Council on this thread. Those of us who don't care can express that opinion by not voting. We also won't be misled into counting people who might just not be checking their email this week.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:22 PM, Lou Burnard mailto:lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk

...

wrote:

...

The purpose of my first rule is to ensure a high turnout. At least from people who want a change.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk mailto:lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk

...

wrote:

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

...

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get

...

...

discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote

this the

...

Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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I support TEI Go (TEI o2 also very clever, good one Peter). I was thinking about TEI ArmyKnife in the shower but it's only good for subtitling, not as a brand. Now TEI Go officially has 2 supporters, can we have it on the list, Lou? Elisa, I actually disagree we want to cut all connections with Lite and Tite, Simple essentially being a new take on Lite. What we wanted to avoid was utter confusion between the three 'facilitated by phonic/semantic similarity' as Kevin pointed out. I claim Go is sufficiently distinct in both aspects, has a nice ring to it, brings positive image of things moving forward... On 23 October 2016 at 10:16, Lou Burnard wrote:

Sfaics the only names so far proposed which have two or more supporters are Simple, Print, and Bookish. You have a couple more hours before nominations close and I send out the ballot papers though. Especially as it's Sunday and I am running a bit late.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard

...

wrote:

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

...

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get this discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote the Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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Wait a second--I'm in a state of semantic confusion now. *Is* this-thing-whose-name-is-poised-to-change actually right now in the form it will take in the December 2016 release simply "a new take on Lite"? My understanding from this entire conversation is that, whatever its original purpose, it is actually attuned to Western Books and Printed Materials (by dead white authors etc etc under the Western authorship model). To avoid the very semantic confusion that Magda and Kevin both warned about, and to recall the very goal of coming up with a distinct name that does not mislead by conveying universality of application, and that rather makes very clear the best (and indeed widely if not universally applicable) use of the thing-that-is-really-not-simple, we are better off with Bookish or Print. And I like Bookish for capturing those cases that aren't necessarily print but are close enough for this to apply. The idea that this is supposed to be for everyone new as an ideal starting point seems to be the problem we've been discussing all along as we have been searching for a more appropriate name than Simple, right? I'm not sure that "Go" helps much in making clear this is only really "Go" for some kinds of work. Elisa -- Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD Director, Center for the Digital Text Associate Professor of English University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA E-mail: ebb8@pitt.edu | Development site: http://newtfire.org Typeset by hand on my iPad

On Oct 23, 2016, at 7:08 AM, Lou Burnard wrote:

Tei army knife in the shower just makes me think of Psycho... But ok Magda, tei go will be on the list, which should appear after lunch.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Magdalena Turska To: tei-council@lists.tei-c.org CC:

I support TEI Go (TEI o2 also very clever, good one Peter). I was thinking about TEI ArmyKnife in the shower but it's only good for subtitling, not as a brand. Now TEI Go officially has 2 supporters, can we have it on the list, Lou?

Elisa, I actually disagree we want to cut all connections with Lite and Tite, Simple essentially being a new take on Lite. What we wanted to avoid was utter confusion between the three 'facilitated by phonic/semantic similarity' as Kevin pointed out. I claim Go is sufficiently distinct in both aspects, has a nice ring to it, brings positive image of things moving forward...

On 23 October 2016 at 10:16, Lou Burnard wrote:

...

Sfaics the only names so far proposed which have two or more supporters are Simple, Print, and Bookish. You have a couple more hours before nominations close and I send out the ballot papers though. Especially as it's Sunday and I am running a bit late.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard

...

wrote:

...

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get this discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote the Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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Exactly so. Which is why the second paragraph of this thing whatever it's called now says explicitly what this schema is good for and what it is not. Like we agreed in Vienna. Sent from my Honor Mobile -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC: I think the confusion here is legitimate. Martin Mueller wants this to become a replacement for TEI Lite, and to become the standard on-ramp for new users to TEI who just want a schema, dammit. But the way it was implemented was as something that would accommodate things like EEBO. It also, of course, has new stuff like the Processing Model. So in some sense this is a sort of updated Lite. Some of us just don't work with materials like this or in this way and are a little bemused that TEI for most everyone is totally useless for our purposes, and tend to think we'd be better off improving our customization and documentation stories. I think we lean towards preferring a name that reflects what the customization was designed for, rather than one that claims to be easy TEI for everyone. We are making a very fundamental decision here with the naming of this thing, which is why it's hard. Is this going to be the on-ramp for new users? If so, I think we have to decide to promote it that way—this is what MM is arguing for. Or is this going to be a useful customization for things like EEBO, so not "start here", but "start here if you're producing surrogates of printed materials." In the latter case, I think we'd be deciding that the on-ramp to TEI is a bit more like a reference interview, and the new TEI user has to think about what they want to do before choosing or customizing a schema. And we'd be deciding to focus on designing tools and documentation to facilitate that decision. Hugh On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Elisa wrote:

Wait a second--I'm in a state of semantic confusion now. *Is* this-thing-whose-name-is-poised-to-change actually right now in the form it will take in the December 2016 release simply "a new take on Lite"? My understanding from this entire conversation is that, whatever its original purpose, it is actually attuned to Western Books and Printed Materials (by dead white authors etc etc under the Western authorship model). To avoid the very semantic confusion that Magda and Kevin both warned about, and to recall the very goal of coming up with a distinct name that does not mislead by conveying universality of application, and that rather makes very clear the best (and indeed widely if not universally applicable) use of the thing-that-is-really-not-simple, we are better off with Bookish or Print. And I like Bookish for capturing those cases that aren't necessarily print but are close enough for this to apply.

The idea that this is supposed to be for everyone new as an ideal starting point seems to be the problem we've been discussing all along as we have been searching for a more appropriate name than Simple, right? I'm not sure that "Go" helps much in making clear this is only really "Go" for some kinds of work.

Elisa

-- Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD Director, Center for the Digital Text Associate Professor of English University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg 150 Finoli Drive, Greensburg, PA 15601 USA E-mail: ebb8@pitt.edu | Development site: http://newtfire.org

Typeset by hand on my iPad

...

On Oct 23, 2016, at 7:08 AM, Lou Burnard wrote:

Tei army knife in the shower just makes me think of Psycho... But ok Magda, tei go will be on the list, which should appear after lunch.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Magdalena Turska To: tei-council@lists.tei-c.org CC:

I support TEI Go (TEI o2 also very clever, good one Peter). I was thinking about TEI ArmyKnife in the shower but it's only good for subtitling, not as a brand. Now TEI Go officially has 2 supporters, can we have it on the list, Lou?

Elisa, I actually disagree we want to cut all connections with Lite and Tite, Simple essentially being a new take on Lite. What we wanted to avoid was utter confusion between the three 'facilitated by phonic/semantic similarity' as Kevin pointed out. I claim Go is sufficiently distinct in both aspects, has a nice ring to it, brings positive image of things moving forward...

On 23 October 2016 at 10:16, Lou Burnard wrote:

...

Sfaics the only names so far proposed which have two or more supporters are Simple, Print, and Bookish. You have a couple more hours before nominations close and I send out the ballot papers though. Especially as it's Sunday and I am running a bit late.

Sent from my Honor Mobile

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [tei-council] what's in a name? From: Hugh Cayless To: TEI Council CC:

Fine with that except for point #1. I think no vote is *not* a vote for the status quo.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk

...

wrote:

...

...

On 21/10/16 17:57, Magdalena Turska wrote:

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get

...

...

discussion leading somewhere...

This is why I hate naming discussions and why they always go on forever.

Here's what I suggest.

1. All members of Council have a vote, just one. If you do not vote

this the

...

Returning Officer will assume you are voting for the status quo, i.e. "Simple".

2. You have until Sunday morning (in Europe) to propose new names and argue their case. At noon on Sunday, I will recirculate the list of candidates. To be a candidate, a name must have more than one supporter.

3. On Tuesday evening, the Returning Officer will count the votes and declare a winner. AND THAT WILL BE AN END OF IT!

I am happy to volunteer for the job of Returning Officer. I was going to say Hugh should do it, but since he has strong views on one of the candidates (and I dont: just on the need to knock this thing on the head)...

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As far as names are concerned, my preference is for TEI Go. That said, I think we should have Council/Board's majority for changing the status quo. I see reasons for both sticking to Simple (and perhaps in the future going for Simple Print and others in that vein) or naming customizations for intended purpose (so TEI Print). I absolutely abhor TEI Bookish. Magdalena On 25 October 2016 at 20:47, Syd Bauman wrote:

Sorry for jumping in late; death in the family has really bollixed up my schedule.

* I dislike "TEI Simple";

* I'm OK with "TEI Bookish" or "TEI Go";

* I'm OK with "TEI Old Print" if written that way, but outright like it written as "TOP";

* I repeat my suggestion from Vienna: "TEI for Early Modern Printed Books", aka TEMPB (pronounced "temp bee").

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I support voting system proposed by Elisa and apologize for my strong language about Bookish - it was never meant to offend. I have no doubt that inevitable differences of opinion on particular subjects will have no effect whatsoever on our cooperative or social abilities. Best, Magdalena On 25 October 2016 at 23:14, Elisa Beshero-Bondar wrote:

Well, apparently we didn’t all vote in time, and we probably shouldn’t be speculating about why people didn’t vote. It sounds as if we’re reopening the conversation and adding new options to vote for.

So what are we going to do about that? Perhaps a new ballot, and we don’t close the voting until everyone’s had a say? There’s also, of course, the question of HOW we’re voting. What if we were to rank the several options we have in order of preference, just as we do in voting for a Council or Board election? Yes, it’s more complicated, but it also helps us to determine when people really “abhor” a particular option. I suppose I "abhor” Simple as much as Magda “abhors” Bookish, but I hope we can still be friends when the dust settles!

Of course I know we’ll discuss this on Thursday.

Elisa -- Elisa Beshero-Bondar, PhD Director, Center for the Digital Text | Associate Professor of English University of Pittsburgh at Greensburg | Humanities Division 150 Finoli Drive Greensburg, PA 15601 USA E-mail: ebb8@pitt.edu mailto:ebb8@pitt.edu Development site: http://newtfire.org http://newtfire.org/

...

On Oct 25, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Magdalena Turska wrote:

As far as names are concerned, my preference is for TEI Go.

That said, I think we should have Council/Board's majority for changing the status quo. I see reasons for both sticking to Simple (and perhaps in the future going for Simple Print and others in that vein) or naming customizations for intended purpose (so TEI Print). I absolutely abhor TEI Bookish.

Magdalena

On 25 October 2016 at 20:47, Syd Bauman wrote:

...

Sorry for jumping in late; death in the family has really bollixed up my schedule.

* I dislike "TEI Simple";

* I'm OK with "TEI Bookish" or "TEI Go";

* I'm OK with "TEI Old Print" if written that way, but outright like it written as "TOP";

* I repeat my suggestion from Vienna: "TEI for Early Modern Printed Books", aka TEMPB (pronounced "temp bee").

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Although these are clever ideas, especially TEI o^2, each one is trying to sound as if it is a new kind of Lite or Tite, and I thought we are trying to avoid projecting that illusion? That is why TEI Bookish is appealing. I think Bookish works for being pithy and precise, and actually no more silly than the others. Elisa

On Oct 22, 2016, at 9:00 AM, Peter Stadler wrote:

I completely agree with Magda that choosing a brand name has some advantages – so here’s what I have to throw in the hat:

* "TEI Go": I took this from the MEI community which currently debates over a ‚simpiflied‘ MEI schema under the name „MEI Go“. „Go“ has all those active and healthy connotations, so marketing people will love it! * „TEI Lite Redux“: That name establishes a close relation between the current TEI Lite schema and the new ‚Simple‘ schema. That way, the perceived amount of TEI schemas would stay the same, and we could sell Simple as a replacement for Lite (if we want to) * „TEI o^2 (=circle squared)“: I think that’s at the heart of what we are trying to do – approximating a complex problem. You could read this as O2 (=Oxygen), as well, which opens another universe of connotations and relations ;)

Best Peter

PS: Sorry, couldn’t resist …

...

Am 21.10.2016 um 18:57 schrieb Magdalena Turska :

All that discussion of names makes me think we should choose something fairly meaningless but somehow appealing[1]. So, a brand name, if you want: easy to remember and with pleasant connotations, not necessarily descriptive or accurate.

Simple actually is such a name. But if not that, how about TEI Lean or TEI Neat (already proposed but went without comments). Perhaps other ideas in that vein?

I like the sound of Bookish as working title but support James' reserve it's not serious enough, even for me.

At the end of this, do we have a vote or what? I wonder how to get this discussion leading somewhere...

Magdalena

[1] one of the aims of having that customization being selling (or actually giving for free) the idea to innocent librarians and students who couple months down the road realize they've gotten themselves into an expensive habit, right? ;-)

On 21 October 2016 at 17:34, James Cummings wrote:

...

...

On 21/10/16 17:31, Kevin Hawkins wrote:

If you'll allow your webmaster to interject, let me say that I support "TEI Bookish". Lite and Tite, and Simple are all easily confused because of phonic and semantic similarity, which means no one can keep them straight. On the other hand, "bookish" sticks in your head. --Kevin

That to me seems like an argument against it.... ;-)

I'm usually prone to the Silly but the 'ish' just seems like we're not taking it seriously at all to me.

but I should stop whinging and let others have their say so I'll shut up for awhile. ;-)

-James

-- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings@it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford -- tei-council mailing list tei-council@lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council

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