Re: [tei-council] [TEI] examples combines @from with @notAfter (#1331)

i dont think we disagree on how to interpret these attributes: just in the degree of importance we attach to the following asymettry: @to or @from plus @notBefore and/or @notAfter must mean a period and if supplied on some element which denotes a point are therefore erroneous; whereas @notBefore and/or @notAfter means a period if supplied on an element which denotes one, or a point if supplied on some element which denotes a point. On 15/03/16 17:41, Hugh Cayless wrote:

I think they always indicate a period. The aspect of the event in question is a characteristic of the event. You can infer the event's aspect from @from/@to, but not from @notBefore/@notAfter. I don't think that constitutes a bug though.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:

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also, note that if you take the view that @notBefore and @notAfter indicate a period rather than a point in the absence of @to or @from, you are giving them a different meaning conditional on the presence of some other attribute/s. which is kind of a weird thing to do.

On 15/03/16 17:30, Lou Burnard wrote:

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Only if we want to make a distinction between "Hugh became chairman sometime between 1976 and 2017" and "Hugh was chairman for some indeterminate period between 1976 and 2017"

but i am quite happy to let this sleeping dog lie

On 15/03/16 17:25, Hugh Cayless wrote:

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Well, I'd say @notBefore and @notAfter together indicate a period of time within which the thing indicated by their parent element happened. That happening may itself have a duration, or it may be instantaneous. Do we really need to care about whether it does or not?

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

Well that is my intuitive understanding too, but the question is what it

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means when you supply both of them.

I agree that most elements are pretty clear as to whether they define a single point or a duration, but not all. What about <event> for starters, or <affiliation> : you might want to say someone was affiliated with something at some (imprecise) moment, or you might want to say they were affiliated for some (imprecise) period of time.

On 15/03/16 16:58, Hugh Cayless wrote:

My intuitive understanding of @notBefore/@notAfter was that @notBefore

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only applied to beginnings or single points in time and @notAfter only applied to ends or single points in time. Essentially that @notBefore == "terminus post quem" and @notAfter == "terminus ante quem".

Are there any elements where it's ambiguous whether they're a single point in time or a duration? I don't think <death> is one of them...

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Lou Burnard < lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

Actually, now I think about it, it's worse. Your example assumes

> everything is a period of time, but many datable things are points in > time, > for which @from and @to are fairly meaningless. > <death from="1900" to="1901"/> means someone took a very long time > dying > and is not the same as <death notafter="1901" notBefore="1900"/> > > My rule of thumb is that @notBefore and @notAfter should be used only > to > indicate a point in time (alone or in combination); only if there is a > @from or @to present can we assume we're talking about > a period of time. So if we want to express a period of time with an > uncertain start AND end, either we need an extra pair of attributes > (please, no), or we require the presence of @dur (so "a period of > about 4 > weeks between this vague date and that vague date"), or we just have > to > live with the fact that a date supplying @notBefore and @notAfter is > inherently ambiguous as to whether it means some point in time or some > span > of time. > > > > On 15/03/16 16:08, Lou Burnard wrote: > > Precisely. A 2d matrix can't cope with four variables... > >> Sent from my Honor Mobile >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [tei-council] [TEI] examples combines @from with >> @notAfter >> (#1331) >> From: Hugh Cayless >> To: TEI Council >> CC: >> >> Just so I understand then: >> >> @from + @notBefore and @notAfter means "certain start; uncertain end, >> between nB & nA" >> @from + @notBefore means "certain start; uncertain end, but after nB" >> @from + @notAfter means "certain start; uncertain end, but before nA" >> @notBefore and @notAfter + @to means "uncertain start, between nB and >> nA; >> certain end" >> @notBefore + @to means "uncertain start, but after nB; certain end" >> @notAfter + @to means "uncertain start, but before nA; certain end" >> @from + @to means "certain start; certain end" >> presumably then, >> @notBefore + notAfter can mean either "uncertain start, but after nB; >> uncertain end, but before nA" or "uncertain start, but before nA; >> uncertain >> end, but after nB", depending on whether nB > nA or vice versa. >> >> I think we need a bigger table... >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Lou Burnard < >> lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk> >> wrote: >> >> Not sure... but in any case, I think the prose is right. >> >> >>> On 15/03/16 15:32, Hugh Cayless wrote: >>> >>> The prose is new too, isn't it? >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Lou Burnard < >>>> lou.burnard@retired.ox.ac.uk> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'd suggest removing the table for the moment. It doesn't express >>>> what >>>> the >>>> >>>> prose says and the prose was there first. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 15/03/16 15:27, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'll take a look in a few hours ... >>>>> >>>>> In the meantime, did I commit my changes to TD and >>>>> constrantSpec.xml >>>>> >>>>>> properly? >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) The example immediately following the table contradicts the >>>>>> >>>>>> information in the table in >>>>>> >>>>>> http://teic.github.io/TEI/ND.html#NDATTSda, because it has >>>>>>> `@from`, `@notBefore`, and `@notAfter`. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) Also, there's a French >>>>>>> [example]( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/TEIC/TEI/blob/dev/P5/Source/Specs/att.datable.w3c.xml#L91 >>>>>>> ) >>>>>>> that uses `@when` in conjunction with `@notBefore` and >>>>>>> `@notAfter`. >>>>>>> I've switched the checks that enforce usage as outlined in the >>>>>>> table to warnings, but we must fix `#1` and we should either >>>>>>> remove >>>>>>> the example in `#2` or change our minds about whether it's ok. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> tei-council mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>> tei-council@lists.tei-c.org >>>>> http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>>> >>>>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council@lists.tei-c.org >>> http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> >>> -- >>> >>> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council@lists.tei-c.org >> http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> >> -- >> > tei-council mailing list > tei-council@lists.tei-c.org > http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -- tei-council mailing list tei-council@lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/tei-council

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