Hi all, Just wondering if anyone has been encoding/transcribing the bhale symbol, and how you represent it. It doesn't seem to have made it into Unicode yet. As a follow-up to that, I was wondering if it was possible to set up a section of IndicTexts TEIWiki to document encoding/transcribing practices in current and past projects. I've thought a few times about putting together a document that just lists the different ways people have transcribed pṛṣṭhamātrās, virāmas, etc. that isn't covered in any specification. Best, Charles
Charles,
Regarding setting up a section on the Indic Texts Wiki
https://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:IndicTexts: please do feel free. You
will need to register, but I don't think you need to be a TEI member to
register.
I think the DHARMA project has plans to create a list of such symbols,
which would presumably be represented by the <g> element in EpiDoc
editions. Whether and how those symbols would be displayed is a different
matter. I suppose the options are (a) represent the symbol as it is found
in the document, with an image; (b) represent the symbol with a "standard
form" (e.g., the "Jain Om" included in the Unicode standard; for symbols
like bhale, this is more complicated); or (c) represent the symbol with
something like "(bhale symbol)," making no attempt to copy its form. Does
anyone have preferences or experiences with any of these options?
Andrew
https://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:IndicTexts
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:23 PM Charles Li
Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone has been encoding/transcribing the bhale symbol, and how you represent it. It doesn't seem to have made it into Unicode yet.
As a follow-up to that, I was wondering if it was possible to set up a section of IndicTexts TEIWiki to document encoding/transcribing practices in current and past projects. I've thought a few times about putting together a document that just lists the different ways people have transcribed pṛṣṭhamātrās, virāmas, etc. that isn't covered in any specification.
Best,
Charles
_______________________________________________ Indic-texts mailing list Indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/indic-texts
Dear Charlie and Andrew,
I'm fact, in the Cambridge project we tagged the bhale with <g>. We also have a list of tagged symbols, but again, I think it would be better to coordinate the efforts.
Best wishes,
Camillo
Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone
---- Andrew Ollett wrote ----
Charles,
Regarding setting up a section on the Indic Texts Wikihttps://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:IndicTexts: please do feel free. You will need to register, but I don't think you need to be a TEI member to register.
I think the DHARMA project has plans to create a list of such symbols, which would presumably be represented by the <g> element in EpiDoc editions. Whether and how those symbols would be displayed is a different matter. I suppose the options are (a) represent the symbol as it is found in the document, with an image; (b) represent the symbol with a "standard form" (e.g., the "Jain Om" included in the Unicode standard; for symbols like bhale, this is more complicated); or (c) represent the symbol with something like "(bhale symbol)," making no attempt to copy its form. Does anyone have preferences or experiences with any of these options?
Andrew
https://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:IndicTexts
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:23 PM Charles Li
In the Harvard project, Pingree's assistants had transcribed it as 90. We changed it to om with an added note that it was bhale. I just now read Bhattacharya’s article which argues that it represents siddham or siddhir astu. I found the argument plausible but not entirely convincing, and found Kielhorn’s remark, cited on p. 204, more likely. Have you come across any work that is more conclusive? I copy my notes on Bhattacharya’s article, together with its Biblatex bibliography, below. Yours, Peter @article{bhattacharya.bhale, title = {The <r>Bale</r> symbol of the Jainas}, author = {Gouriswar Bhattacharya}, date = {1995}, journaltitle = {Berliner Indologische Studien}, volume = {8}, pages = {201--228}, } % Argues that the symbol which looks in two figures like 90 symbolizes <r>sidDaM</r> or <r>sidDir astu</r>. However, he [204]{bhattacharya.bhale} cites Kielhorn, ``The sign for 9 is generally the old sign for <s>oM</s>, but in one or two MSS. the <r>{a}anusvAra</r> is omitted. [ldots] That the sign for 9 is nothing but the syllable <s>oM</s>, is clear also from the fact that many Sanskrit MSS. begin with what looks like <s>90</s>, but is really the word <s>oM</s>. In most MSS. <s>oM</s> is repeated after the sign <s>oM</s>, because the meaning of the latter had ceased to be understood.'' Bhattacharya continues, ``But Kielhorn was wrong. Neither the sign for 9, nor `what looks like <s>90</s>' stands for \textit{<r>oM</r>}.'' He then cites Albiruni who seems to corroborate what Kielhorn wrote. Then he continues, ``Poor Al Biruni had no occasion to know that the simple image was not invented by the Hindus, but by the Buddhists and the Jainas. Klaus Bruhn's suggestion, cited on p. 201 note 2, that Gujarati \textit{bhale} is derived from Sanskrit \textit{<r>Badram</r>} is correct. Yours, Peter ****************************** Peter M. Scharf, President The Sanskrit Library scharf@sanskritlibrary.org mailto:scharf@sanskritlibrary.org https://sanskritlibrary.org https://sanskritlibrary.org/ ******************************
On 2 Nov 2019, at 1:52 PM, Camillo Formigatti
mailto:camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: Dear Charlie and Andrew,
I'm fact, in the Cambridge project we tagged the bhale with <g>. We also have a list of tagged symbols, but again, I think it would be better to coordinate the efforts.
Best wishes,
Camillo
Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone
---- Andrew Ollett wrote ----
Charles,
Regarding setting up a section on the Indic Texts Wiki https://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:IndicTexts: please do feel free. You will need to register, but I don't think you need to be a TEI member to register.
I think the DHARMA project has plans to create a list of such symbols, which would presumably be represented by the <g> element in EpiDoc editions. Whether and how those symbols would be displayed is a different matter. I suppose the options are (a) represent the symbol as it is found in the document, with an image; (b) represent the symbol with a "standard form" (e.g., the "Jain Om" included in the Unicode standard; for symbols like bhale, this is more complicated); or (c) represent the symbol with something like "(bhale symbol)," making no attempt to copy its form. Does anyone have preferences or experiences with any of these options?
Andrew https://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/SIG:IndicTexts On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:23 PM Charles Li
mailto:cchli@cantab.net> wrote: Hi all, Just wondering if anyone has been encoding/transcribing the bhale symbol, and how you represent it. It doesn't seem to have made it into Unicode yet.
As a follow-up to that, I was wondering if it was possible to set up a section of IndicTexts TEIWiki to document encoding/transcribing practices in current and past projects. I've thought a few times about putting together a document that just lists the different ways people have transcribed pṛṣṭhamātrās, virāmas, etc. that isn't covered in any specification.
Best,
Charles
_______________________________________________ Indic-texts mailing list Indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org mailto:Indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/indic-texts http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/indic-texts _______________________________________________ Indic-texts mailing list Indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org mailto:Indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/indic-texts
Dear Charles and Andrew,
the DHARMA project’s „Transliteration Guide” is now public at https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-02272407 though I should note that a revised version is on the way, with a small number of basic changes. Or method of dealing with symbol characters will likely be simplified, but we’re still working on the exact method. Andrew’s (c), with essentially free text such as (bhale symbol) will almost certainly be endorsed by us, and in a year or two we intend to harvest such pieces of text created by various encoders to see if we can use these as raw material for a controlled vocabulary. Our “Encoding Guide” is still in a pretty raw state, but a public version can be expected in the not too distant future, perhaps a month, definitely before the end of the year. We have also, by the way, devised a way to deal with virāmas and pṛṣṭhamātrās (the former is in the Transliteration Guide; the latter will be in the Encoding Guide). Though of course alternative methods are possible and may be better suited for certain purposes (such as Jean-Luc Chevillard’s aim of reproducing the ambiguities present in an original text as accurately as possible), we would of course be happy of others also adopted the methods we (will) have devised.
All the best,
Daniel
Feladó: Andrew Ollett
Elküldve: 2019. november 1., péntek 23:27
Címzett: indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org
Tárgy: Re: [Indic-texts] encoding/transcribing the bhale symbol
Charles,
Regarding setting up a section on the Indic Texts Wiki: please do feel free. You will need to register, but I don't think you need to be a TEI member to register.
I think the DHARMA project has plans to create a list of such symbols, which would presumably be represented by the <g> element in EpiDoc editions. Whether and how those symbols would be displayed is a different matter. I suppose the options are (a) represent the symbol as it is found in the document, with an image; (b) represent the symbol with a "standard form" (e.g., the "Jain Om" included in the Unicode standard; for symbols like bhale, this is more complicated); or (c) represent the symbol with something like "(bhale symbol)," making no attempt to copy its form. Does anyone have preferences or experiences with any of these options?
Andrew
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:23 PM Charles Li
participants (5)
-
Andrew Ollett
-
Camillo Formigatti
-
Charles Li
-
Daniel Balogh
-
Peter Scharf