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Dear Peter, yes, I remember our conversation. I regret that other voices
were louder for you then, and that they have prevailed now.
You could still use Pandit and work with Yigal and his team to get it
exporting triples. That would be fantastic for everyone, a real benefit
for the whole community working on Indian prosopography.
Your remark about TEI tells me that you haven't really looked into it. The
TEI is not an off-the-shelf set of tags to rummage through and be
disappointed because it doesn't define *gaccha*. It is a framework for
*defining* XML schemas. IYes, it provides a lot of standard stuff already,
but the real point of TEI is that it is extensible. You use it to define
the special tags that you actually need for your project. For SARIT, for
example, we define many things like "adhy=C4=81ya" "vy=C4=81khy=C4=81" and =
so forth, as
subdivisions of a generic "part," because that's useful in expressing how
Sanskrit texts are structured.
I'm concerned, Peter, that by starting from zero with a highly complex
project you will pour effort into it and find in five or ten years that it
all has to be thrown away. That is a very common experience in projects of
this kind. I apologize for speaking so plainly, but my concern is born
of hard experience. Witness the Woolner project, and many others.
Best,
Dominik
=E2=80=8B
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <
http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
Department of History and Classics <
http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
University of Alberta, Canada
=E2=80=8B.=E2=80=8B
South Asia at the U of A:
=E2=80=
8Bsas.ualberta.ca=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
On 17 May 2018 at 02:01, Peter Flugel <
pf8@soas.ac.uk> wrote:
Dear Dominik,
We discussed the issues privately a year ago and we took many of your
extremely useful suggestions on board.
As highlighted in the articles, the triplestore data of the JP will be
made available free to use by anyone once the download functions and
webpage are installed. I wish this was the case all around especially in
India where Jaina electronic datasets are as difficult to access as the
Jaisalmer bhandar.
The most interesting answer I received so far to the standard question as
to the long term viability of databases (for the JP guaranteed by Sheffie=
ld
DHI) was the one of GabrieI Bodard at Senate House. I think he is right i=
n
saying that the only procedure that preserved texts in the past and will
preserve electronic data over time is copying. No super database or
web-portal will ever emerge and be able to survive over time (maybe apart
from the internet itself). Building in options for linking purpose built
datasets at the point of development therefore seems to be the way to go.
The data mining software Gabriel developed is limited to the standard
categories of name, date, place etc. 'Stage two' prosopographies' however
require uniform data and often highly differentiated taxononomies for
specific purposes and require a great deal of case specific analysis.
Given permissions (!) it may be possible relatively easily to produce a
dataset of datasets through copying. But the emerging datasets will not b=
e
uniform and hence require massive work to be useful for stage two
prosopographies. I can presently not see how this can be handled without
hands on editorship. Since eternal editor roles are inconceivable some ki=
nd
of standard will have to emerge.
Solving the conundrum of finding a standard for coding Indian family name=
s
for library catalogues proved tricky and has been abandoned as far as I c=
an
see. In the articles I laid out the practical and theoretical issues we
faced as a memento of self-reflection but also in view of informing
(potential) collaborators on this specific project. I found Keats-Rohan's
book by far the most useful source for practical research with such tools=
.
She did not touch upon South Asian materials though.
On the addition problem how to operationalise patronage I didn't find muc=
h
useful information but I may have missed something. TEI has no useful
categories. Off the shelf does not always work for particular research
questions as well.
Clearly at least in South Asian Studies most work still lies ahead. We
need datasets comparable to the projects on the Roman materials of Mommse=
n
etc. (which are still not digitally available, certainly not in state two
prosopographical format). Pandit is fabulous but did not provide the tool=
s
for instigating the research questions informing the JP project. Otherwis=
e
I would have indeed simply requested Yigal to permit putting data in and
computing them as suggested by you. I am not aware of a sociologically
oriented stage-two prosopography in South Asian studies at present and
cannot be sure whether in a limited way the JP will succeed realising thi=
s
aim. It also is a pilot study. But its data can be copied ad we learn qui=
te
a lot about the structure of the Jaina data in the process of analysis.
Sigh...
Peter
On 16 May 2018 at 18:54, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Peter,
Can I suggest in the strongest terms that the Jaina prosopography projec=
t
uses the Pandit <http://panditproject.org> prosopography system for
managing its data? Many of us are interested in the same kinds of questi=
on,
and it is critically important that we share data. If we all go off in
corners and re-invent the wheel, we will set back our field by decades.
Pandit isn't perfect. It may not even meet all your needs, although I
suspect you will be surprised by how much it does do for a project such =
as
yours. However, Yigal and the team who created and maintain Pandit are
actively developing it and they are very open to technical suggestions (=
and
money!). I am in such a dialogue myself right now, with one of their
system programmers who lives in Brazil.
It is easy to underestimate the difficulty of creating a sound tool for
serious prosopographical work. Pandit is itself the third iteration of =
the
project. It started as a Windows-based Filemaker Pro project. That bec=
ame
unusable after a certain volume of data was added. Then it was ported t=
o
MySQL running on a Linux base. That was more robust, but also had
drawbacks due to leftover features from the earlier Windows mess. Final=
ly,
Yigal had the whole thing rewritten again in the light of everything we =
had
learned and ported the very considerable volume of data forward to the n=
ew
system. Since then, even more author/work/manuscript data and
bibliographical material has been added.
Looking at your Jaina prosopography paper, all the "methodological
issues" you raise in sections 3 and the onomastic issues in section 4 we=
re
faced and mostly solved by the Philobiblon
<http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/philobiblon/> project, many years ago, in
the context of Iberian prosopography. A major part of that thinking
informs Pandit.
The basic fact is that systems such as this become exponentially more
useful as more data is added. What you add links to what has been added
before. New relationships are discovered, time is saved by not entering
the same data repeatedly and this, in turn, leads to a major gain in
accuracy. (A public genealogical system that demonstrates this kind of
crowdsourced cooperation-gain superbly is geni.com.)
If you decide not to put your project's data in Pandit, then I hope you
will produce a compelling document explaining why not. It will be very
useful to the Pandit team for their own future consideration.
Best,
Dominik
=E2=80=8B
--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk=
=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
Department of History and Classics
<http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B
University of Alberta, Canada
=E2=80=8B.=E2=80=8B
South Asia at the U of A:
=E2=80=8Bsas.ualberta.ca=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
On 16 May 2018 at 03:19, Peter Flugel <pf8@soas.ac.uk> wrote:
Dear Friends,
I have just joined the list on recommendation. I haven't seen any of th=
e
earlier communications as yet, but as an opener would like to inform yo=
u of
a the above mentioned project and of the attached probing articles that
emerged from in its context:
(2018) 'Jaina-Prosopography I: Sociology of Jaina-Names.' In: Balbir,
Nalini and Fl=C3=BCgel, Peter, (eds.), *Jaina Studies. Select Papers
Presented in the 'Jaina Studies' Section at the 16th World Sanskrit
Conference.* Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan & D.K. Publishers &
Distributors, pp. 187-267. (Proceedings of the World Sanskrit Conferenc=
e)
https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/24708/
(2018) 'Jaina-Prosopography II: =E2=80=9CPatronage=E2=80=9D in Jaina Ep=
igraphic and
Manuscript Catalogues.' In: Chojnacki, Christine and Lecl=C3=A8re, Basi=
le,
(eds.), *Gift of Knowledge: Patterns of Patronage in Jainism.*Bangalore=
:
National Institute of Prakrit Research Shravanabelagola, pp. 1-46. (in
press)
On the project: https://www.soas.ac.uk/jaina-prosopography/
Since the main purpose of the project is to create a tool to be used by
the research community beyond the lifetime of the project any input lea=
ding
to an improvement of the approach would be more than welcome.
The database will be accessible by the beginning of 2020.
with best wishes
Peter
--
Dr Peter Fl=C3=BCgel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of History, Religions and Philosophies
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG
Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8@soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies
_______________________________________________
indic-texts mailing list
indic-texts@lists.tei-c.org
http://lists.lists.tei-c.org/mailman/listinfo/indic-texts
--
Dr Peter Fl=C3=BCgel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Department of History, Religions and Philosophies
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG
Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8@soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet =
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dear Peter, yes, I remember our conversation=
. I regret that other voices were louder for you then, and that they =
have prevailed now.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">You =
could still use Pandit and work with Yigal and his team to get it exporting=
triples. That would be fantastic for everyone, a real benefit for th=
e whole community working on Indian prosopography.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">Your remark about TEI tells me that you haven't real=
ly looked into it. The TEI is not an off-the-shelf set of tags to rum=
mage through and be disappointed because it doesn't define <i>gaccha</i>.&n=
bsp; It is a framework for <i>defining</i> XML schemas. IYes, it prov=
ides a lot of standard stuff already, but the real point of TEI is that it =
is extensible. You use it to define the special tags that you actuall=
y need for your project. For SARIT, for example, we define many thing=
s like "adhy=C4=81ya" "vy=C4=81khy=C4=81" and so forth,=
as subdivisions of a generic "part," because that's useful in ex=
pressing how Sanskrit texts are structured.</div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">I'm concerned, Peter, that by starting from zero with a hig=
hly complex project you will pour effort into it and find in five or ten ye=
ars that it all has to be thrown away. That is a very common experien=
ce in projects of this kind. I apologize for speaking so =
plainly, but my concern is born of hard experience. Witness the Wooln=
er project, and many others.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">Best,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuche=
t ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dominik</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><=
div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:small"><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><div><font size=3D"1"><span =
style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div style=3D"font-family:"treb=
uchet ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B</div>--=
</span><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
style=3D"font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><font size=3D"1"=
Professor <a href=3D"http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Dominik Wujastyk</a><div sty=
le=3D"font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B</div><br>Singhmar=
Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity<div style=3D"font-size:small;=
display:inline">=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B</div><br></font><div><font size=3D"1"><=
a href=3D"
http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,=
204)" target=3D"_blank">Department of History and Classics</a><div style=3D=
"font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B</div></font></div><fon=
t size=3D"1">University of Alberta, Canada<div style=3D"font-size:small;dis=
play:inline">=E2=80=8B.=E2=80=8B</div><br></font></div><div><font size=3D"1=
">South Asia at the U of A:</font><font size=3D"1" style=3D"font-family:&qu=
ot;trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><div style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);displa=
y:inline"> </div><a href=3D"
http://sas.ualberta.ca/" style=3D"color:rg=
b(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">=E2=80=
8Bsas.ualberta.ca=E2=80=8B</a><div s=
tyle=3D"display:inline">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B</div></font></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:small"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:"trebuchet m=
s",sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></span><div><span><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=
=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:trebu=
chet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms=
,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-s=
erif"><font size=3D"1"><br></font></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div></div></div><font size=3D"1">
</font></div></div></span></div></div></span></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 May 2018 at 02:01, Peter Flugel <span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"
mailto:pf8@soas.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">pf8@soa=
s.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=
=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
2.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rg=
b(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;=
float:none;display:inline">Dear Dominik,</span><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,3=
4,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoratio=
n-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:no=
rmal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text=
-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">We discussed the i=
ssues privately a year ago and we took many of your extremely useful sugges=
tions on board.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decor=
ation-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-famil=
y:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligature=
s:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;=
text-decoration-color:initial">As highlighted in the articles, the triplest=
ore data of the JP will be made available free to use by anyone once the do=
wnload functions and webpage are installed. I wish this was the case all ar=
ound especially in India where Jaina electronic datasets are as difficult t=
o access as the Jaisalmer bhandar.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);f=
ont-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style=
:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(3=
4,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decora=
tion-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">The most interesting answ=
er I received so far to the standard question as to the long term viability=
of databases (for the JP guaranteed by Sheffield DHI) was the one of Gabri=
eI Bodard at Senate House. I think he is right in saying that the only proc=
edure that preserved texts in the past and will preserve electronic data ov=
er time is copying. No super database or web-portal will ever emerge and be=
able to survive over time (maybe apart from the internet itself). Building=
in options for linking purpose built datasets at the point of development =
therefore seems to be the way to go. </div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,=
34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font=
-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decorati=
on-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"col=
or:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:40=
0;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);tex=
t-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">The data mining s=
oftware Gabriel developed is limited to the standard categories of name, da=
te, place etc. 'Stage two' prosopographies' however require uniform data an=
d often highly differentiated taxononomies for specific purposes and requir=
e a great deal of case specific analysis. </div><div style=3D"color:rg=
b(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-dec=
oration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-=
style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,2=
55);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Given perm=
issions (!) it may be possible relatively easily to produce a dataset of da=
tasets through copying. But the emerging datasets will not be uniform and h=
ence require massive work to be useful for stage two prosopographies. I can=
presently not see how this can be handled without hands on editorship. Sin=
ce eternal editor roles are inconceivable some kind of standard will have t=
o emerge. </div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:no=
rmal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text=
-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font=
-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-li=
gatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:in=
itial;text-decoration-color:initial">Solving the conundrum of finding a sta=
ndard for coding Indian family names for library catalogues proved tricky a=
nd has been abandoned as far as I can see. In the articles I laid out the p=
ractical and theoretical issues we faced as a memento of self-reflection bu=
t also in view of informing (potential) collaborators on this specific proj=
ect. I found Keats-Rohan's book by far the most useful source for practical=
research with such tools. She did not touch upon South Asian materials tho=
ugh. </div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-se=
rif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration=
-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-=
decoration-color:initial">On the addition problem how to operationalise pat=
ronage I didn't find much useful information but I may have missed somethin=
g. TEI has no useful categories. Off the shelf does not always work for par=
ticular research questions as well.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);=
font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-styl=
e:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decor=
ation-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Clearly at least in Sout=
h Asian Studies most work still lies ahead. We need datasets comparable to =
the projects on the Roman materials of Mommsen etc. (which are still n=
ot digitally available, certainly not in state two prosopographical format)=
. Pandit is fabulous but did not provide the tools for instigating the rese=
arch questions informing the JP project. Otherwise I would have indeed simp=
ly requested Yigal to permit putting data in and computing them as suggeste=
d by you. I am not aware of a sociologically oriented stage-two prosopograp=
hy in South Asian studies at present and cannot be sure whether in a limite=
d way the JP will succeed realising this aim. It also is a pilot study. But=
its data can be copied ad we learn quite a lot about the structure of the =
Jaina data in the process of analysis.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,3=
4);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-s=
tyle:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-de=
coration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Sigh...</div><div sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></di=
v><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:=
12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial=
">Peter</div>
<br></div></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<span class=3D"">On 16 May 2018 at 18:54, Dominik Wujastyk <span dir=3D"ltr=
"><<a href=3D"
mailto:wujastyk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wujastyk@gmai=
l.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dear Peter,</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size=
:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuch=
et ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Can I suggest in the strongest terms that=
the Jaina prosopography project uses the <a href=3D"
http://panditproject.o=rg" target=3D"_blank">Pandit</a> prosopography system for managing its data=
? Many of us are interested in the same kinds of question, and it is critic=
ally important that we share data. If we all go off in corners and re=
-invent the wheel, we will set back our field by decades.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet=
ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Pandit isn't perfect. It may not even=
meet all your needs, although I suspect you will be surprised by how much =
it does do for a project such as yours. However, Yigal and the team w=
ho created and maintain Pandit are actively developing it and they are very=
open to technical suggestions (and money!). I am in such a dialogue =
myself right now, with one of their system programmers who lives in Brazil.=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">It is easy to underest=
imate the difficulty of creating a sound tool for serious prosopographical =
work. Pandit is itself the third iteration of the project. It s=
tarted as a Windows-based Filemaker Pro project. That became unusable=
after a certain volume of data was added. Then it was ported to MySQ=
L running on a Linux base. That was more robust, but also had drawbac=
ks due to leftover features from the earlier Windows mess. Finally, Y=
igal had the whole thing rewritten again in the light of everything we had =
learned and ported the very considerable volume of data forward to the new =
system. Since then, even more author/work/manuscript data and b=
ibliographical material has been added. <br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">Looking at your Jaina prosopography paper, all the &=
quot;methodological issues" you raise in sections 3 and the onomastic =
issues in section 4 were faced and mostly solved by the <a href=3D"
http://b=ancroft.berkeley.edu/philobiblon/" target=3D"_blank">Philobiblon</a> projec=
t, many years ago, in the context of Iberian prosopography. A major p=
art of that thinking informs Pandit. <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">The basic fact is that systems such as this become exponentia=
lly more useful as more data is added. What you add links to what has=
been added before. New relationships are discovered, time is saved b=
y not entering the same data repeatedly and this, in turn, leads to a major=
gain in accuracy. (A public genealogical system that demonstrates th=
is kind of crowdsourced cooperation-gain superbly is <a href=3D"
http://geni=.com" target=3D"_blank">
geni.com</a>.)<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">If you decide not to put your project's data in Pandit, then=
I hope you will produce a compelling document explaining why not. It=
will be very useful to the Pandit team for their own future consideration.=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
Dominik<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:trebuche=
t ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_-43233417=
6304195117m_-8444901932040756036gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_si=
gnature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><span><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:small">=
<div style=3D"font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><div><font s=
ize=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=
=E2=80=8B</div>--</span><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"=
<font size=3D"1">Professor <a href=3D"http://ualberta.academia.edu/Do=
minikWujastyk" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Dominik Wuj=
astyk</a><div style=3D"font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B<=
/div><br>Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity<div style=3D=
"font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B</div><br></font><div><=
font size=3D"1"><a href=3D"
http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/" style=3D=
"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Department of History and Classics=
</a><div style=3D"font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B,=E2=80=8B</div>=
</font></div><font size=3D"1">University of Alberta, Canada<div style=3D"fo=
nt-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B.=E2=80=8B</div><br></font></div><di=
v><font size=3D"1">South Asia at the U of A:</font><font style=3D"font-fami=
ly:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif" size=3D"1"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
17,85,204);display:inline"> </div><a href=3D"
http://sas.ualberta.ca/" =
style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">=E2=80=
8Bsas.ualberta.ca=
=E2=80=8B</a><div style=3D"display:inline">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B</div></font><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v><span style=3D"font-size:small"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><div><span><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
style=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=
=3D"font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><font size=3D"1"><br></font></div></div></div></=
div>
</div></div>
</div></div>
</div></div></div></div><font size=3D"1">
</font></div></div></span></div></div></span></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 16 May 2018 at 03:19, Peter Flugel <span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"
mailto:pf8@soas.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">pf8@soa=
s.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Dear Friends,<div><br></div><div>I have just joined the list on recom=
mendation. I haven't seen any of the earlier communications as yet, but as =
an opener would like to inform you of a the above mentioned project and of =
the attached probing articles that emerged from in its context:</div><div><=
br></div><div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:center;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text=
-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">(2018) 'Jaina-Prosopog=
raphy I: Sociology of Jaina-Names.' In:<span> </span></span><span clas=
s=3D"m_-432334176304195117m_-8444901932040756036m_4479513003149671078gmail-=
person_name" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(67,67,66);font-famil=
y:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:nor=
mal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text=
-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Balbir, Nalini</sp=
an><span style=3D"color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:center;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;t=
ext-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span> </span>=
and<span> </span></span><span class=3D"m_-432334176304195117m_-8444901=
932040756036m_4479513003149671078gmail-person_name" style=3D"margin:0px;pad=
ding:0px;color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:cen=
ter;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decor=
ation-color:initial">Fl=C3=BCgel, Peter</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(67,6=
7,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.16p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;flo=
at:none;display:inline">, (eds.),<span> </span></span><em style=3D"mar=
gin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgr=
ound-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-c=
olor:initial">Jaina Studies. Select Papers Presented in the 'Jaina Studies'=
Section at the 16th World Sanskrit Conference.</em><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color=
:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initi=
al;float:none;display:inline"><span> </span>Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit =
Sansthan & D.K. Publishers & Distributors, pp. 187-267. (Proceeding=
s of the World Sanskrit Conference)</span> <a href=3D"
https://eprints.=soas.ac.uk/24708/" target=3D"_blank">
https://eprints.so<wbr>as.ac.uk/24708/=</a></div><div><br></div><div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:center;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text=
-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">(2018) 'Jaina-Prosopog=
raphy II: =E2=80=9CPatronage=E2=80=9D in Jaina Epigraphic and Manuscript Ca=
talogues.' In:<span> </span></span><span class=3D"m_-43233417630419511=
7m_-8444901932040756036m_4479513003149671078gmail-person_name" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligature=
s:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:center;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial=
;text-decoration-color:initial">Chojnacki, Christine</span><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-colo=
r:initial;float:none;display:inline"><span> </span>and<span> </sp=
an></span><span class=3D"m_-432334176304195117m_-8444901932040756036m_44795=
13003149671078gmail-person_name" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(=
67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12=
.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial=
">Lecl=C3=A8re, Basile</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family=
:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.16px;font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-=
decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:i=
nline">, (eds.),<span> </span></span><em style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0=
px;color:rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:12.16px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f=
ont-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">Gif=
t of Knowledge: Patterns of Patronage in Jainism.</em><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(67,67,66);font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:12.16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps=
:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:center;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-col=
or:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:ini=
tial;float:none;display:inline">Bangalore: National Institute of Prakrit Re=
search Shravanabelagola, pp. 1-46. (in press)</span>
<br></div><div><br></div><div>On the project: <a href=3D"
https://www.soas.a=c.uk/jaina-prosopography/" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.soas.ac.uk/jaina-p=<wbr>rosopography/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Since the main purpose of t=
he project is to create a tool to be used by the research community beyond =
the lifetime of the project any input leading to an improvement of the appr=
oach would be more than welcome.</div><div><br></div><div>The database will=
be accessible by the beginning of 2020.</div><div><br></div><div>with best=
wishes</div><div><br></div><div>Peter<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <=
br><div class=3D"m_-432334176304195117m_-8444901932040756036m_4479513003149=
671078gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Dr Peter=
Fl=C3=BCgel<br>Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies<br>Department of History, Re=
ligions and Philosophies<br>School of Oriental and African Studies<br>Unive=
rsity of London<br>Thornhaugh Street<br>Russell Square<br>London WC1H OXG<b=
r><br>Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776<br>E-mail: <a href=3D"
mailto:pf8@soas.ac=
.uk" target=3D"_blank">
pf8@soas.ac.uk</a><br><a href=3D"
http://www.soas.ac.=uk/jainastudies" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastu<wbr>dies<=
/a></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br clear=3D"all"=
<div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-432334176304195117gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div>Dr Peter Fl=C3=BCgel<br>Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies<br>Department of=
History, Religions and Philosophies<br>School of Oriental and African Stud=
ies<br>University of London<br>Thornhaugh Street<br>Russell Square<br>Londo=
n WC1H OXG<br><br>Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776<br>E-mail: <a href=3D"mailto=
:
pf8@soas.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
pf8@soas.ac.uk</a><br><a href=3D"
http://=www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.soas.ac.uk/<wbr>j=ainastudies</a></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
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